Proposed change to alternate form feat about core-rules HOT 133 CLOSED

I agree with @Elvenoob about this:

put your backpack down every single time you want to shapeshift

To make the RP comment on that one. Please change into a gargantuan dragon in my game and then try to take a potion bottle/key/scroll out of your human sized backpack. I'd love for you to try that.

from core-rules.

I think the idea is that if the character concept requires a negative, the player and GM should determine that outside of the rules, which is in line with the Open Legend philosophy, as I see it.

from core-rules.

@DukeAnax Yes - that, I agree that we need a penalty for shifting in and out of alternate form and I think it needs to be 1 level of the Fatigue bane, and then you can take Indomitable Endurance to shift more without penalty.

@WarthogRoadkil - I don't think we're going to insist on a negative aspect to the alternate form. There are way too many examples to the contrary in stories.

from core-rules.

I agree with @brianfeister that Boon Focus overlaps with this feat too much in its current iteration. With that said, it still has a purpose, which is to differentiate between two different types of shifting:

• a form that is chosen by the player and augments the character in a story-driven way
  vs.
• becoming a completely different creature of the game world's creation, with one's Attributes being switched out entirely for another being's.

My idea is to have alternate form be reserved for supernatural (or other non-animal) forms, which is what it seems to be for anyway, but make this mechanically rewarding.
Shapeshift covers mundane stuff (mammals, marine life, etc.), but Alternate Form is for werewolves, vampires, etc., right? So at the GM's discretion, the character should gain non- or supernatural ability (maybe a drawback or two as well), that relates to the new form. Werewolves might gain points in Might, Agility, and Fortitude, but can't use Supernatural or Mental Attributes, as an example. The perks and flaws system could be used to great effect for this.

I think this accentuates the open nature of choosing a form by having the GM and player craft it together, and make it more interesting and modular than adding points to Physical Attributes. So Totally-Not-Iron-Man can have a metal suit that provides extra mobility and firepower, and the Totally-Not-Hulk can have the mindless killing machine alter ego.

from core-rules.

I think that's a great way of doing it, though I think the number of attributes could be more flexible. Is 2 significant from a balance perspective?
I guess I could see stat bumps in excess being abused, like with the Hulk example, having high mentals then switching to an all physicals form when combat starts and switching back again when a puzzle needs solving.

from core-rules.

One issue I just realized. We are canceling out the use of Boon Access 6 (Flight) which has in mind that automatic flight should be expensive. What could happen now is people who want to play a pixie are miffed because they should do it with the alternate form feat but that's a bit weird.

from core-rules.

Okay. I fiddled with the costs a bit and added minimum tier restrictions to avoid making things like flight and size alteration too accessible but not overly expensive. Added a few examples at the end. Anyone wanna add a few of your own examples to test this system out?

The one thing I am wondering about is if assuming an alternate form is too powerful without some other sort of cost. In a sense it's like you are trading feat points for attributes. Spend 5 feat points to gain 5 Energy, for example, if you are transforming into an elemental. One thought to balance it out a bit is to just make the transformation time a focus action instead of a major action. Another thought is to add a level of fatigue every time you revert to your normal form, kind of like berserker.

Tier 1 or higher:
Increase a physical attribute by 1^ * 1 Transformation Point
Increase your base speed by 10 feet* 1 Transformation Point
Increase Toughness and Evasion by 1* 1 Transformation Point
Increase or decrease your size by 1 category 0 Transformation Points

Tier 3 or higher:
Gain climb speed equal to your base speed 1 Transformation Point
Increase or decrease your size by 2 categories 1 Transformation Point

Tier 6 or higher:
Increase a supernatural attribute by 1^ * 1 Transformation Point
Gain fly speed equal to your base speed 2 Transformation Points
Gain burrow speed equal to ½ your base speed 2 Transformation Points
Increase or decrease your size by 3 categories 2 Transformation Points

EXAMPLES

Cheetah (Tier 3)
+20’ speed (cost 2)
+1 Agility (cost 1)

Werewolf Hybrid (Tier 5)
+1 Might (cost 1)
+3 Toughness and Evasion (cost 3)
+10’ speed (cost 1)

Fire Elemental (Tier 6)
+6 Energy (cost 6)

Ice Drake (Tier 6)
-1 size (cost 0)
Flight (cost 2)
+4 Energy (cost 4)

Colossus (Tier 9)
+3 size (cost 2)
+3 Might (cost 3)
+4 Toughness and Evasion (cost 4)

from core-rules.

Out of the two I would prefer making it a focus action instead of adding fatigue. That would be fine with Supernatural transformations, but thinking of other genres here, what about Iron Man, or some other transformation? Why would they get fatigued?
I like the new tier system.
I think a 1:1 trade for Attributes is ok, actually. Comparing to say Attribute Substitution, it's actually a terrible trade. I could spend three points to get a stat to 5 from 0, and would increase automatically as I increase it at later levels. The draw here is being able to mix and match the various abilities, and feat points are an expensive resource that are not replenished that much.

from core-rules.

Oh, wow, you've thought this through a lot better than I have, nice to see that it still lines up with what I thought at a first glance.

And, I never really had a justification for why the stat boosts of this feat are fine, I just got the feeling that was the case. Great to see someone figure out how to justify it.

from core-rules.

@istabosz I like this alot, but there is one nagging concern that I can't shake. Before, the feat had a "barrier to entry" where you needed to invest in Alteration to meet the pre-requisite. That is gone now, and I think it's a positive change. However, the side-effect is that now I can make a totally vanilla Paladin character, say that I have some kind of "Divine Avatar" thing where I become a conduit of my deity and so my Alternate Form I allows me to just have Might 6 any time I want at 1st level for only 1 Feat point.

My thinking is we might need to be quite severe in making the change of form costly. I would say granting 1 level of Fatigued would be the minimum cost, and even that is maybe too lenient. Consider that Open Legend doesn't get involved with durations, and thus I can say I shift into my Paladin's "Divine Avatar" at the beginning of each day when I wake up and then just maintain it.

I started to write about how "sustain" could be used to mitigate the above issue, but actually, that's not correct. If Alternate Form requires a "sustain" action to keep it going, then you can't do Focus actions while in alternate form, which seems odd.

from core-rules.

No, just no, there's no need to add unnecessary complications by giving the option to take away stats, Just, simply roleplay and use those stats less in the form where they apply less.

Particularly in Amber's case, her personality DOESN'T change when she transforms.

from core-rules.

@DukeAnax - I appreciate you weighing in on it, but I'm comfortable with where we are on this and I feel strongly that adding some sort of "take a penalty to gain a bonus" in order to account for The Hulk is unnecessary. I am resolute that this should be the responsibility of the player to roleplay it.

from core-rules.

@brianfeister - And I understand yours. I'm glad that my ideas have been considered and discussed. This is a great Community.

After consideration I can completely agree with your decission. Keep the system simple at the basics and open at the top and everyone can use it as they need.

from core-rules.

(That one was directed at me, @brianfeister )

I wasn't angry about my character at all, I'm not in your game after all, and it's not really your fault for not knowing my concept as well as I do, either.

On the other hand, you seemed to be completely set on your own idea and completely ignoring ours, so I got a little frustrated, sorry about that.

from core-rules.

Ok, so I missed that about the change, glad you pointed it out @Elvenoob!

I was thinking that we would do something like this (I feel it's a bit simpler but accomplishes the same thing). We are, after all granting flight to characters that invest all their points to get it via Boon Access: Flight 6. Also, flight is even easier than that if you just want to break the "game world boundaries". I can take Boon Focus (Flight) Unfortunately, I had a typo in this and the first one is meant to be Power Level 5 to simulate levitation. So technically, Movement 5 grants you levitation and Boon Focus (Flight) would make it an auto-success at will. The speed thing is actually secondary.

That said, here's the proposal:

Tier 1 (Cost: 3 feat points | Grants: 4 Transformation points)
Increase a physical attribute by 1^ * Cost: 1 Transformation Point
Increase your base speed by 10 feet Cost: 1 Transformation Point
Gain climb speed equal to your base speed Cost: 1 Transformation Point
Gain burrow speed equal to ½ your base speed Cost: 2 Transformation Points
Increase or decrease your size by one category* Cost: 1 Transformation Point
Increase Toughness and Evasion by 1* Cost: 1 Transformation Point
(Sizes: Miniscule > Tiny > Small > Medium > Large > Huge > Gargantuan)

Tier 2 (Cost: 3 feat points | Grants: 6 Transformation points)
Increase a supernatural attribute by 1^ * Cost: 2 Transformation Points
Gain fly speed equal to your base speed Cost: 2 Transformation Points

from core-rules.

Umm... Both of those are numbered as Tier 1...

from core-rules.

I did misread it indeed, just ran the math again and it is indeed 6 points to get Flight, not 7. So, that should be fine.

Which means, all that's left is the costs (Since you guys don't quite seem to agree on that yet), and what happens to all that mundane equipment we're lugging around.

from core-rules.

I saw that as soon as you posted it, but I had to stop laughing, took me a while.

But still, that's what you have your servants party members for~!

from core-rules.

Indeed, it is a bit confusing. As far as I remember, almost everyone had agreed on this basic idea

Alternate Form (I - IX)
Cost: Tier 1: 3 points
Tiers 2 - 9: 1 point each
Prerequisite: None

Description:
You possess the ability to transform at will into a signature alternate form. Examples of this feat in action include a werewolf assuming animal form, a vampire transforming into a bat, and a superhero who can take the form of a giant rock monster.

Effect:
When you take this feat, you build the stats for the alternate form that you can assume.

To build your alternate form, you gain a number of Transformation Points equal to your tier plus 2. You can spend these points in any combination of the following ways, provided you have met the minimum feat tier indicated:

Tier 1 or higher:
Increase your base speed by 10 feet* 1 Transformation Point
Increase or decrease your size by 1 category 0 Transformation Points
Increase or decrease your size by 2 categories 1 Transformation Point
Increase a physical attribute by 1^ * 1 Transformation Point
Increase Toughness and Evasion by 1* 1 Transformation Point
Gain swim speed equal to your base speed 1 Transformation Point
Gain climb speed equal to your base speed 1 Transformation Point

Tier 4 or higher:
Increase a supernatural attribute by 1^ * 1 Transformation Point
Gain fly speed equal to your base speed 2 Transformation Points
Gain burrow speed equal to ½ your base speed 2 Transformation Points
Increase or decrease your size by 3 categories 2 Transformation Points

*These options may be selected more than once.
^You may not raise any attribute beyond the usual maximum plus 1.

And we were discussing specific minor issues, like what happens to the PC's equipment when they transform.

from core-rules.

I have a player using this at the moment and I was going to query the overlap with the shapeshift boon and associated feats. My only question would be if we take out the attribute point aspect, what would be the in game benefit of taking it.

from core-rules.

@istabosz what you've laid out there is a 100% overlap with Boon Focus which allows you to always succeed at invoking a boon, without a roll. And in fact, Boon Focus is better for shapeshifter characters because they can take it 3 times to achieve the D&D Druid "Thousand Faces" ability. Their shapeshifting is permanent, requires only a minor action, and if dispelled automatically resumes on it's own unless prevented. Keep in mind this is tier 3 of a 3 point boon so a 9 point investment.

So, all that to say that we probably should consider removing Alternate form altogether. And @DMsShadow is correct, the only point of the feat was the attribute point changes that it triggers, the rest is just meaningless fluff.

from core-rules.

So yeah, to drive the point home, dropping the stat modifications from alternate form means that you might as well kill it altogether.

Instead, I propose we discuss how the Alternate Form can be even MORE distinct from Shapeshift and how we can fix whatever mechanical woes it's creating.

from core-rules.

@WarthogRoadkil I like this idea a lot.

from core-rules.

@WarthogRoadkil I like the idea. I think we might be able to make that even cleaner by saying it like this:

You gain an alternate form. You and your GM must work together to decide what that form means from a a storytelling perspective. Once it's agreed upon, select 2 attributes that are enhanced by the new form. While in that form, you get a +1 to both attributes, though this affects only dice, and is still considered the same otherwise. You also select 2 attributes that are penalized the new form, those attributes get -1 for the duration you're in your alternate form. Lastly, at the option of the player & GM, you can select 1 Perk and 1 Flaw that you gain when in this alternate form

What does everyone think about that?

from core-rules.

I'm not a fan of this at all, it seems a LOT weaker than the current one, and it also adds yet another feat which prevents people from properly designing characters before they actually have a game to participate in, I know it's a necessary ruling for Attribute Substitution, for example, but the result of that is; I hesitate to use that feat in designing character concepts, because I can never be fully sure it'd be approved.

In fact, this version of alternate form... Doesn't really seem to have any benefit at all, at least in my opinion. Sure, you can shift around stats a little, but not only is it still sum-zero, aka, no benefit overall, particularly given the action economy cost of transforming, but since it's just 1 point, it's not even really all that impactful, particularly since it doesn't make any extra boons/banes accessible...

Remember, Alternate Form as it is right now lets you keep your Supernatural stats while transformed, that's a huge difference compared to the Shapeshift boon.

I think, all alternate form needs is a bit of clarification if the form you choose would logically have another speed, like swimming or flight.

Giving that type of thing much earlier than one would be able to get it from Shapeshifter would fit in with the more specialized, but less versatile nature of Alternate form.

Sure, the Dragon form's flight speed is useful, but it's not gonna be helpful in an underwater mission. Shapeshifters eventually get to do both, but in exchange for the increased power and earlier access, you don't get to do that.

This seems perfectly fair and different enough to me.

Heck, you could even make it so that, a person with the Alternate Form feat can't make use of the Shapeshifting boon on themselves, because it'd mess with their existing transformation too much. Mechanically, though, this is to drive home the divide between the specialized power of the Feat, and the versatility of the Boon.

I do like the idea of picking up a perk and a flaw, though... Maybe having the flaw, and possibly the perk too, always-on, or, at least, opening up that option, might be a better idea. After all, particularly the flaws are an actual integral part of the character's personality for the most part.

Although, cases like a Lycanthrope who doesn't have control over that form do make sense for the "Gaining a flaw" case, that's about it. A Vampire's bat form wouldn't suddenly become a lot more narcissistic, for example.

from core-rules.

I agree that the Attributes should be more flexible, and I don't think a minus is applicable in every instance. I think the original Attribute system is fine with the addition of points scaling with the character's Alteration Attribute. If that passage was clarified, and the perks, flaws, and opening passages added, it would be great as-is.
The reason I say the point scaling should be clarified is because I'm unsure if the pool of points is meant to be Attribute Points, or a separate type that converts 1:1 to Attribute increases. The former seems too weak, and the latter very strong. Elvenoob and I have discussed this at least twice on the forum before, and I think that has a big impact on interpreting the strength of the feat.

from core-rules.

One thing I really like about Open Legend is that the mechanics support the narrative. And I think it's important to take a step back from the mechanics and look a what narrative Alternate Form and Shapeshift support respectively.

Personally, I think that we only need a mechanic to support a character that change form. Whatever form that is. I could be a werewolf hybrid form, or a dragon/human shift, or an astral form, or a druid changing to a bear and even a vampire that change into a cloud of mist.

What we do need, to support specific narrative is a way to compensate for feat point investment if the character narrative limit the use. By that I mean, of you want to mimic the druid "shape only to natural animals" or the d&d polymorph spell that allows to change into any creature (natural or supernatural) or the werewolf limitation to change into only one form.

If we had a limitation mechanics we could expend it to other areas of the game. Take a waterbender from The Avatar : the last air bender. We would have to take movement to be able to telekineticly mpve some water and forfeit the use of flight and teleportation just because it doesn't make sense given the source of power we want the Character to have. But a psionic character in the same party would have to invest the same amount of attribute points to move the same amount of water, but will be able to move other things and teleportation and flight ...

from core-rules.

What do you all think of this for Alternate Form feat? I think it solves the problem with overlap with Shapeshift and effectively gives something fun for players to geek out about when building their characters. This is just a draft. I'll have to check for balance by building a few examples to see just what you can get out of it:

Alternate Form (I - IX)
Cost: 1 point
Prerequisite: None

Description:
You possess the ability to transform at will into a signature alternate form. Examples of this feat in action include a werewolf assuming animal form, a vampire transforming into a bat, and a superhero who can take the form of a giant rock monster.

Effect:
When you take this feat, you build the stats for the alternate form that you can assume.

To build your alternate form, you gain a number of Transformation Points equal to your tier in this feat. You can spend these points in any combination of the following ways:

Increase a physical attribute by 1^ * Cost: 1 Transformation Point
Increase a supernatural attribute by 1^ * Cost: 2 Transformation Points
Increase your base speed by 10 feet Cost: 1 Transformation Point
Gain climb speed equal to your base speed Cost: 1 Transformation Point
Gain fly speed equal to your base speed Cost: 2 Transformation Points
Gain burrow speed equal to ½ your base speed Cost: 2 Transformation Points
Increase or decrease your size by one category* Cost: 1 Transformation Point
Increase Fortitude and Evasion by 1* Cost: 1 Transformation Point
(Sizes: Miniscule > Tiny > Small > Medium > Large > Huge > Gargantuan)

*These options may be selected more than once.
^You may not raise any attribute beyond the usual maximum plus 1.

Transforming into or out of your alternate form requires a major action. If you reach zero hit points while transformed, you automatically revert to your natural form.

You may take this feat multiple times for different forms. Track your tier separately for each form. For example, you might possess Alternate Form II (rat) and Alternate Form IV (bear).

from core-rules.

I like this proposal a lot @istabosz! What does the rest of the group think!

from core-rules.

Keep in mind that the Flight Boon is supernatural (Levitation, Super Man) and can be used on any form.

Here flying should be intrinsic to the alternate form, like a bird or dragon, not completely sure about something like a Beholder. Maybe they'd flop on the ground unless they also have the flight boon as well?

A pixie could have intrinsic flight in their main form, just like an aarakocra, they shouldn't need supernatural flight, because they have physical wings.

from core-rules.

Well maybe one option would be to just increase the transformation point cost of flight.

from core-rules.

Don't get me wrong they shouldn't need alternate form eitehr.

I think that is a problem with most system being focussed mainly on humanoid characters. You either have to accept that characters with alternative physiology can get free bonuses or we could make a feat that accounts for secial effects of physical attributes, like flying for wings, prehensile grab for tails, or high jump for locust legs.

from core-rules.

This is a really cool idea and implementation! And the removal of Alteration as a requirement really opens up this playstyle to new archetypes. The feat point to Transformation Point ratio seems pretty steep at first glance, but I think that accentuates the difference between Alternate Form and Shapeshift rather well.

from core-rules.

But that's a different discussion, back to Alternate Form. I like the basic idea, but I would add some more.

Most other feats, you first buy tier 1, then 2 then 3 and so on. The next level builds up on the previous one, otherwise you'd have to save up your feet points, which would be especially frustrating at character creation.

To fasilitate that here we should add the idea that an alternate form can be a partial transformation that evolves over time. Like the Werewolf starting out with canines, a bit of fur and increased strength and later turning into a huge viscious beast.

Maybe you should also add an option to trade additional points for penalties. like
Decrease a physical attribute by 1^ * Gain: 1 Transformation Point
Optaan a flaw appropriate to the form ^ * Gain: 1 Transformation Point

That way much more drastic transformations could be achived. The Werewolf could gain access to his full transformation earlier by loosing some control. And the vampire could sacrifice some might in his Bat form to get points for the flight and size change, rather than spend at least four fate points. (seems a bit much, just for a Bat)

It makes also sense that some transformaions include penalties from a narrative perspective, not all though, like the original proposal suggested

from core-rules.

I like that version a lot.

I suggest though that transformation point can simply be used to buy feats.

Maybe the alternate form has multiple arms (hello octopus) and they want the alternate form to use them all at once with the Multi-attack feat.

The different form of movement should be created as feat/boon to allow non humanoid character concept like @DukeAnax pointed out.

from core-rules.

I like that version a lot too, @istabosz

As for the overlap with Boon Access, maybe the options which give different speeds or the ability to breathe underwater have an attribute pre-requisite, like the original feat, because these things are harder to create whilst forming your alternate form.

I would say, don't put the requirement higher than, say, a five in the stat, so that it's still possible level 1, just, you're investing into a score of 5 in Alteration to get these abilities, so it's still expensive, just in a different way.

And, all of DukeAnax's suggestions also look pretty cool to me, it might be open to a little abuse, but maybe, just adding a DM-approval clause to just those couple sub-attributes should be fine, since it doesn't affect the feat as a whole.

from core-rules.

I'm a bit worried that some of these recent suggestions are taking a turn toward the over complicated. But it sounds like we are all agreeing on the basic idea and the recent proposal scratches most everyone's itch.

from core-rules.

I agree that it's starting to get bloated.. I'd recommend just the points system and perks/flaws, and call it a day.

from core-rules.

We can create a barrier to entry while still allowing the flexibility of the feat and without a huge drawback. I'm afraid adding something like Fatigued levels will scare people off.
Alternate Form originally was 3 tiers, costing 3 feat points each. The newest draft has it as a 1-9, which makes it much more open to abuse than the published iteration, squeezing in just what the character needs for a minimum of points.
So instead of a purely 1-9 progression, how about combining Tiers 1-3, requiring three feat points to take it, then progress as normal. So basically, a 1-7 that melds the first two categories @istabosz has now, which keeps the feat flexible while requiring a substantial point investment?

from core-rules.

I think that's a good way of preventing abuse @WarthogRoadkil :)

from core-rules.

I'm afraid it might be too clunky, but @istabosz can work his magic on it, I'm sure.

from core-rules.

You could just give it a notation of Special in the Cost box, or before it lists the Tiers of the Feat, and explain at the beginning of the Feat description "Special: You can't purchase Tiers one or two of this feat on their own, you must take the first three at the same time."

Also, I am going to make my Dragon character under this system, full stat block and everything, but I just realized, I don't need the 5 in Alteration anymore, so I'll be redistributing some stat points.

from core-rules.

I made Amber using this version of the rules, and all six of her level 1 Feat points (Ouch, but 10/10 worth it)

A few things to note about the notation I used here:

• In sections where I have, for example, Might 3/5, the left number is Elf form, the Right number is Dragon Form.
• In the Actions list, the typical actions are given a prefix based on which form she's most likely to use that action in, Elf form (E), both forms (B), or Dragon form (D) (Not necessarily exclusive, but some of them are)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3X8pGQghmhUREZxR3N2a1VjUjQ

from core-rules.

Some forms may be too inaccessible now:
Vampire Bat (Tier 6)
-2 size (cost 1)
Flight (cost 2)
+3 Speed (cost 3)

I really didn't know what to do with the three extra points except speed and I'm not sure I'd want too pend 6 feat points, just to give my vampire a bat form. If it's at character creation I couldn't take anything else, if it's later I'd have to sit on my feat points for two levels.

Same for the Colossus form I'd either not take any feats at Character creation, or I'd have to store up over three levels over it. At least that form would be more worth it.

I'd probably handle bigger transformation something like this:
Colossus (Tier 3)
+1 size (cost 0)
+1 Might (cost 1)
+1 Toughness and Evasion (cost 1)

Colossus (Tier 6)
+2 size (cost 1)
+2 Might (cost 2)
+3 Toughness and Evasion (cost 3)

Colossus (Tier 9)
+3 size (cost 2)
+3 Might (cost 3)
+4 Toughness and Evasion (cost 4)

from core-rules.

I think the vampire bat is a bad build for Alternate Form, only because that seems like a job for Shapeshift instead. You could probably take Boon Focus for Shapeshift and only spend three. A bat turning into a vampire, on the other hand...
It's funny you bring up the colossus, because it wouldn't work with Alternate Form as it stands now. You would need all three tiers to get +3 sizes, but you can take the +1 and the +2 at tier 3+ with this, and only spend three feat points if you wanted.

from core-rules.

One thing I'd like to call out is that we won't be doing feat access with Transformation points so this conversation can go smoother if we remove that from the realm of possibilities we consider.

from core-rules.

Feat access?

from core-rules.

I suggest though that transformation point can simply be used to buy feats.

from core-rules.

This thread is spiraling out a bit so I'm going to sort of say that I think we're mostly finished here. @istabosz can post his updated version in full, when ready.

@WarthogRoadkil I'm not worried about the vampire bat at all, if you want that, all you need to do is Have Entropy + Alternate Form: Filight. A bat doesn't need a speed boost, imo.

from core-rules.

Ok, here's my latest iteration attempting to give it a higher barrier to entry. The one thing I'm still concerned about is not giving any incentive to ever go back into your natural form. For all purposes, these bonuses from the feat are permanent. I do think that fatigue is too high of a cost, but what if the fatigue was temporary: "You can remain in your alternate form for a maximum of 1 hour per tier. After returning to your natural form, you cannot transform again for 1 hour. Whenever you revert to your natural form, you suffer one level of the fatigue bane. This fatigue subsides one hour later."

Alternate Form (I - IX)
Cost: Tier 1: 3 points
Tiers 2 - 9: 1 point each
Prerequisite: None

Description:
You possess the ability to transform at will into a signature alternate form. Examples of this feat in action include a werewolf assuming animal form, a vampire transforming into a bat, and a superhero who can take the form of a giant rock monster.

Effect:
When you take this feat, you build the stats for the alternate form that you can assume.

To build your alternate form, you gain a number of Transformation Points equal to your tier plus 2. You can spend these points in any combination of the following ways, provided you have met the minimum feat tier indicated:

Tier 1 or higher:
Increase your base speed by 10 feet* 1 Transformation Point
Increase or decrease your size by 1 category 0 Transformation Points
Increase or decrease your size by 2 categories 1 Transformation Point
Increase a physical attribute by 1^ * 1 Transformation Point
Increase Toughness and Evasion by 1* 1 Transformation Point
Gain swim speed equal to your base speed 1 Transformation Point
Gain climb speed equal to your base speed 1 Transformation Point

Tier 4 or higher:
Increase a supernatural attribute by 1^ * 1 Transformation Point
Gain fly speed equal to your base speed 2 Transformation Points
Gain burrow speed equal to ½ your base speed 2 Transformation Points
Increase or decrease your size by 3 categories 2 Transformation Points

*These options may be selected more than once.
^You may not raise any attribute beyond the usual maximum plus 1.

from core-rules.

I am still concerned about the fact that alternate form only ever adds, but never takes or changes. As has already been mentioned that may turn out too powerfull and it doesn't allow for some Character Types.

Famous examples: DR. Jekyll and MR Hide. And Hulk. Both gain Physical stats while loosing Mental ones. A Siren or Nymph may have one form that has Presense and another that has Entropy(?)

That is another thing that bothers me with Alternate Form, you can only get Physical and Supernatural attributes. What is with Mental and Social? Or do you mean with "physical" "all non supernatural"? In that case: not clear.

I propose the following in order to allow for subtractive changes, while cutting away some power:
Trading one attribute for another: 1 Transformation point. Gaining an Attribute point: 2 Transformation points.

With the Changes that WarthogRoadkil proposed, it would then look like this:

Alternate Form (III - IX) (cannot be purchased at level I or II)
Cost: 1

To build your alternate form, you gain a number of Transformation Points equal to your tier in this feat plus two. You can spend these points in any combination of the following ways:

Tier 3 or higher:
Trade two natural attributes by 1^ * 1 Transformation Point
Increase a natural attribute by 1^ * 2 Transformation Point
Increase Toughness and Evasion by 1* 2 Transformation Point
Increase your base speed by 10 feet* 1 Transformation Point
Gain climb or swim speed equal to your base speed 1 Transformation Point
Increase or decrease your size by 1 category 0 Transformation Points

Tier 6 or higher:
Trade any two attributes by 1^ * 1 Transformation Point
Increase any attribute by 1^ * 2 Transformation Point
Gain fly speed equal to 1.5 times base speed 2 Transformation Points
Gain burrow speed equal to ½ your base speed 2 Transformation Points
Increase or decrease your size by 2 categories 1 Transformation Point

Tier 9
Increase or decrease your size by 3 categories 2 Transformation Points

Note: I feel that flight should be faster than ground speed and it felt weird to have Gargantuan transformation accessible at character creation.

Examples:
Cheetah (Tier 3) (comparable)
+20’ speed (cost 2)
+1 Agility -1 Might (cost 1)

Werewolf Hybrid (Tier 6) (Costs more, but has less defense)
+1 Might -1 Presence(cost 1)
+2 Toughness and Evasion (cost 4)
+10’ speed (cost 1)

Fire Elemental (Tier 6) (Might not actually make a difference but feels better flavour wise)
+6 Energy -4 might -2 Presense (cost 6)

Ice Drake (Tier 6) (I like this one the best, it really makes the alternate form different, not just better)
-1 size (cost 0)
Flight (cost 2)
+4 Energy -2 Might -2 Fortitude (cost 4)

Amber Dragon (Tier 6) (This emphasis that the Elven form is used to blend it)
+1 size (cost 0)
Flight (cost 2)
+2 Might -2 Presence (cost 2)
+1 Toughness and Evasion (cost 2)

from core-rules.

istabosz: The one thing I'm still concerned about is not giving any incentive to ever go back into your natural form

This is preciciely why I think Alternate Form should be a more of an actual change, rather than just a Bonus. There should be a reason to use both forms.

I'm not for an artificial time limit or the likes though. Some Characters will have reason and abbility to freely switch between different forms.

from core-rules.

@DukeAnax The problem is, this is a FEAT, it's supposed to be a bonus, you're investing a precious character creation resource in it.

from core-rules.

-Just, simply roleplay and use those stats less in the form where they apply less.
-I am resolute that this should be the responsibility of the player to roleplay it.

That's no argument if you "just roleplay" it, you wouldn't need any system in the first place.

from core-rules.

Ok, look at 5e D&D, and specifically, the half-orc race. Do they give ANY negative social thing in the mechanical stat blocks, despite half your heritage being, well orks? No. They only set the positives in stone. I like that kind of design idea, if the players want negative things, or it makes sense in a specific social interaction, such as with someone who hates orks, they can take them, sure, but don't force it on them ALL THE TIME, for no reason.

from core-rules.

WarthogRoadkil: I think the idea is that if the character concept requires a negative, the player and GM should determine that outside of the rules, which is in line with the Open Legend philosophy, as I see it.

That's the word I guess. That's precisely what I'm gonna do anyway, regardless of wheather you include in the system officiall or not.

from core-rules.

@DukeAnax - I understand your viewpoint. But we won't be going that direction with the rules text. Characters that have negative alternate form effects will work that out with their GM separately.

Only the drawback in terms of cost remain to discuss. A Focus Action is one cost, Fatigued bane is another. I suppose a Focus action does make sense and there are reasons not to do Fatigued.

I'm currently leaning toward the cost being a Focus Action and nothing else. I want to point out that most of these granted abilities are already available has feats Fleet of Foot, Supernatural Defense (http://www.openlegendrpg.com/feats/supernatural_defense), and Attribute Substitution (http://www.openlegendrpg.com/feats/attribute_substitution) are all capable of the same mechanical changes for close to the same cost.

from core-rules.

Ok I have to adress this one again though.
First: Are you getting angry now because I dared to make a suggestion towards your character? Hope you don't respond the same to your game master.
Then: The way i understood it, OpenLegend doesn't tracks stats as directly as DnD. It tracks abbility. Someone with low charismy may be rude. In OpenLegend it just means they have less skill applying themselves. That's why I suggested a dragon may have trouble in regular society. I mean it chose the elven form for a reason.

from core-rules.

I think you misunderstand, I'm not disagreeing with your opinions on how you roleplay it, sure, I see your point and it makes sense. We are only talking about the rules text right now.

And no, I'm not angry at all, it's just that I've made a decision after considering and hearing out your viewpoint.

I'm not sure if you know - but I'm the creator of Open Legend. So, it's my job to listen to all viewpoints and then make a decision.

In this debate there are two sides, it's not possible for both sides to have their way. So I hope you can understand the necessity for me to make a choice between two options and move forward. A final judgment call needs to be made so that's what I've done.

from core-rules.

@DukeAnax - Lol, glad we can all be friends. No problem, I understand what happened!

So, @istabosz I think we might just keep this simple and have the cost be a Focus Action. There are tons of avenues for abuse in Open Legend, but it's actually the myriad of options that serve as a balance, you can TRY to do so many things, but you'll still bounce between failure and success on them at the whim of the dice.

from core-rules.

One of the most amazing things to me is how many options you have but then you still are limited to one per turn in combat and most of the actions are not automatic so being able to try something ends up being OK since there's no guarantee of success.

from core-rules.

Hmmm... @istabosz , I still think Flight should be available to those who invest all the way to six points, right from the beginning, because, characters who have an airborne Alt. form, it feels a bit arbitrary to seal them to the ground for maybe the first session or two, and then release them to the skies.

On the other hand, I really like the additional two points added on top of the Tier level, for me, at least, it encourages me to maybe splash a point or two out on more fluff-type abilities at some point, like maybe higher size increases, and know that my stats will still be fine if I do so.

from core-rules.

OH! Late thing I noticed: What happens to armor, in particular, and your other equipment when you shift into larger, smaller, or differently proportioned creatures? (Elf -> Dragon, for example?)

from core-rules.

Armor is a good question, ugh, we need to deal with that for both this and Shapeshift :/

from core-rules.

@brianfeister @Elvenoob I think you guys misread it. You can get flight at tier 4. To get to tier 4 costs 6 feat points. So it's still just as accessible as the previous version.

from core-rules.

Ah, I see, you're right. Hmmm... proposal might be fine then.

from core-rules.

@istabosz You actually misswrote it some. You get 3 point at tier 1, so you have 6 points at Tier 4, but the way you have it right now, you'd need Tier 6, meaning 8 points, for flight.
Also did you mean to keep the highest Tier at 9? So you'd get a total of 11 Transformation points.

from core-rules.

@DukeAnax Not following you.

To get to tier 4 costs 6 feat points.
At tier 4, you get 6 transformation points. Spend 2 of them to get flight.

from core-rules.

Sry, forget that. I messed something up between your two versions and mine and the fact that Brian and Elvenoob got it wrong, it's all good now.

from core-rules.

@Elvenoob I'd say for the equipment to take a leaf from the old D&D work around of the mundane equipment merging into your new form if such a form could not wield it. Therefore you can't access weapons or equipment that the form wouldn't have access to. Armour I could go either way on. Could be that it morphs to match your form and so applies. Or follows the rule for other items as above.

Note that if you lose access to items, it also helps counter the whole 'why ever change back issue'.

from core-rules.

Note that if you lose access to items, it also helps counter the whole 'why ever change back issue'.

This is a VERY good point, and before people mention the loophole in this, no, you wouldn't undress and put your backpack down every single time you want to shapeshift, particularly if your Alt. Form is something MORE mobile than your base one, such as the ever-popular (In this thread) Dragon or Bat forms.

(Heck, even the Werewolf example has a higher movement speed, at least.)

And, without some kind of forewarning that you might need some item, you would not purposefully put it down before transforming, because otherwise, it'd be too much of a pain in the rear end.

Once again, RP trumps mechanic loophole exploitation.

(Or, it should. Normally. If a player insists on doing it, well, scare 'em, make 'em run away and take a risk, or leave the important item behind because it didn't meld into their form.)

from core-rules.

I like that proposal quite a bit @istabosz!

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 22, 2016, at 4:15 PM, istabosz [email protected] wrote:

What do you all think of this for Alternate Form feat? I think it solves the problem with overlap with Shapeshift and effectively gives something fun for players to geek out about when building their characters. This is just a draft. I'll have to check for balance by building a few examples to see just what you can get out of it:

Alternate Form (I - IX)
Cost: 1 point
Prerequisite: None

Description:
You possess the ability to transform at will into a signature alternate form. Examples of this feat in action include a werewolf assuming animal form, a vampire transforming into a bat, and a superhero who can take the form of a giant rock monster.

Effect:
When you take this feat, you build the stats for the alternate form that you can assume.

To build your alternate form, you gain a number of Transformation Points equal to your tier in this feat. You can spend these points in any combination of the following ways:

Increase a physical attribute by 1^ * 1 Transformation Point
Increase a supernatural attribute by 1^ * 2 Transformation Points
Increase your base speed by 10 feet 1 Transformation Point
Gain climb speed equal to your base speed 1 Transformation Point
Gain fly speed equal to your base speed 2 Transformation Points
Gain burrow speed equal to ½ your base speed 2 Transformation Points
Increase or decrease your size by one category* 1 Transformation Point
Increase Fortitude and Evasion by 1* 1 Transformation Point
(Sizes: Miniscule > Tiny > Small > Medium > Large > Huge > Gargantuan)

*These options may be selected more than once.
^You may not raise any attribute beyond the usual maximum plus 1.

Transforming into or out of your alternate form requires a major action. If you reach zero hit points while transformed, you automatically revert to your natural form.

You may take this feat multiple times for different forms. Track your tier separately for each form. For example, you might possess Alternate Form II (rat) and Alternate Form IV (bear).

—
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Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.

from core-rules.

Maybe it's just "choose an equal number of stats that are increased and
decreased"

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 6:00 AM Antonio Bonilla [email protected]
wrote:

I think that's a great way of doing it, though I think the number of
attributes could be more flexible. Is 2 significant from a balance
perspective?
I guess I could see stat bumps in excess being abused, like with the Hulk
example, having high mentals then switching to an all physicals form when
combat starts and switching back again when a puzzle needs solving.

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You are receiving this because you were mentioned.

Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
#45 (comment),
or mute the thread
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAxOiPZ8D3uRljLmqr54RbLHoHEzVC3sks5q2d6ggaJpZM4KdvtZ
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from core-rules.

I feel like I'm missing a comment here, what proposal is this talking about?

EDIT: Oooh, the quote boxes. I have no problem with the first one, but the second one...

Why is decreasing stats coming back up!? I thought we killed that idea completely dead a while ago because it simply doesn't apply to every character, and in cases where you could apply, you just RP the change, not needing to make even more changes to your actual character sheet, and introduce an over-complicated mechanic like this....

from core-rules.

Well, The first one just looks like something that was stuck on a phone for a while.

But I'm mightily confused about the second one, considering Brian opposed the idea, wouldn't have thought he had the same (;

from core-rules.

(Sorry, don't know how to do the spoiler tags the way Brian did them)

from core-rules.

I think my phone re-posted an outdated comment

from core-rules.

Yep. That's what happened. Mine did the same thing like 2 days late. It seems to happen if you try to reply via email

from core-rules.

What if we made it better but also have more of a cost associated with it. Let you add your alteration attribute to any other attribute, but you can only transform for so long and suffer fatigue when you revert. This would give you the potential for flight and other powers early on, but with the cost of fatigue and not being able to sustain them for long without further investment. I really like the following because it's simple, but versatile.

Alteration 3 / 5 / 7
Effect: You can use a pool of points equal to your alteration score divided by 2 (round up) to increase other attributes of your choosing, This allows you to access new boons and banes, but not feats. When you revert to your original form, you suffer a level of the fatigue bane.
Tier 1: You can stay transformed for a number of rounds equal to double your Alteration Score.
Tier 2: You can stay transformed for a number of minutes equal to your Alteration Score.
Tier 3: You can stay transformed a number of hours equal to your Alteration Score.

With the above, you could access flight at lv 1 with 3 movement, 3 alteration for a number of rounds or minutes. As you raise Alteration, you get more and more boons/banes opened up to you (simulating the alternate forms supernatural abilities) and can transform for a longer duration. Each Tier improves the efficiency with which you sustain your form. For the Iron Man example given on a thread I remember, you could take 4 movement, 3 alteration and get flight with 1 and spend the other point in energy to open up more boons/banes/attack types to that form - at level 1 no less.

from core-rules.

@raihje that looks like another comment that is a bit late to the party? Anyway, to make it more visible again, this is the latest official (and probably final) version:

Alternate Form (I - IX)
Cost: Tier 1: 3 points
Tiers 2 - 9: 1 point each
Prerequisite: None

Description:
You possess the ability to transform at will into a signature alternate form. Examples of this feat in action include a werewolf assuming animal form, a vampire transforming into a bat, and a superhero who can take the form of a giant rock monster.

Effect:
When you take this feat, you build the stats for the alternate form that you can assume.

To build your alternate form, you gain a number of Transformation Points equal to your tier plus 2. You can spend these points in any combination of the following ways, provided you have met the minimum feat tier indicated:

Tier 1 or higher:
Increase your base speed by 10 feet* 1 Transformation Point
Increase or decrease your size by 1 category 0 Transformation Points
Increase or decrease your size by 2 categories 1 Transformation Point
Increase a physical attribute by 1^ * 1 Transformation Point
Increase Toughness and Evasion by 1* 1 Transformation Point
Gain swim speed equal to your base speed 1 Transformation Point
Gain climb speed equal to your base speed 1 Transformation Point

Tier 4 or higher:
Increase a supernatural attribute by 1^ * 1 Transformation Point
Gain fly speed equal to your base speed 2 Transformation Points
Gain burrow speed equal to ½ your base speed 2 Transformation Points
Increase or decrease your size by 3 categories 2 Transformation Points

*These options may be selected more than once.
^You may not raise any attribute beyond the usual maximum plus 1.

from core-rules.

Fair enough, size still isn't codified afaik but this gives them yet another reason to do that.
Also, there's no reason not to be in your stronger form permanently with this, it'd make sense to have it limited by time / fatigue or there'd be no reason not to take this feat for a power trip.. especially with +6 or more to attributes, fly speed, etc..

I get that this system largely puts the responsibility in the players' hands for defining their narrative/restrictions but this should probably have a mechanical cost akin but somewhat more severe than berserker.

from core-rules.

"No reason not to be in your stronger form permanently"

Well, you ARE investing a bunch of feat points in this, which you could instead use to, say, give yourself permanent levels of advantage to all your fire or sword attacks, for example.

And, there's always a good RP reason to turn into your normal form.

On top of that, that's where what happens to your equipment comes into the equation, if your equipment melds with your form, D&D style, you're gonna need to switch back to access it, and if it doesn't, you're still usually gonna need to turn back to carry it properly.

Also, MORE severe than a berserker!? No, just no.

I'm sorry, but those levels of Fatigue... Let's just say I'm NEVER touching those Berserker line feats, Fatigue is an absolutely brutal thing to dish out and I don't want to have to deal with it as a player..

Also, looking at the Berserker Feat description and equating it to the points version of this feat, let's see how much they each give you for the same 3 Feat points, going after a similar build:

Berserker.

• Advantage 1 to all attacks. Roughly equivalent to a +1 to a stat, slightly better number output, but no access to new Boons/Banes. I'm still going with (1 Point)
• +5 to ALL defenses. Since Alternate form gives +1 to two of the defenses for one point, I'll count each +1 to resolve as half a point. (5 + 2.5 points)
• Limitation: Rage ends within 3 turns of not attacking or being attacked: Three turns is a LOT of time, so this is only worth (-1 Point)
• Bonus: Free Action to enter Rage: At the very least two points. A free action Transformation is a cool idea for an option to give to Alternate Form, but for now, I'll go with (+2 Points)
• Total: 9.5 Points

Alternate Form I, Github Version

• +1 to the Attacking stat. (1 point)
• +2 to Toughness and Evasion defenses (2 points)
• Total: 3 Points

So yeah, when Alternate Form gives less than half the boosts for the same amount of investment, and Berserkers have an easier time activating their boosts (Free Action for the 'zerkers, Focus Action in the current draft of Alt. Form.), I see no reason to give it anywhere near an equal level of cost for it's use, let alone a more powerful downside.

from core-rules.

If people are afraid that a character won't revert to its normal form ... We could simply suggest to GM to use it as a fiat for a "succes with a twist" situation.

Example for Iron Man (since there was a lot of noise about that concept) : "You manage to hit you opponent with your Omega beam (Energy attack) but you depleted your suit core and you have to get out or be stuck it in"

from core-rules.

I don't get why people need to be spooked over people not coming out of their Alternate form at all, though, to be honest.

Your Alt. Form is going to have some kind of inherent social disadvantage, in the case of Iron Man, civilians would be uncomfortable, and probably scared and unco-operative, when talking to an armored powerhouse. Vampires transforming into ultra-fast bat or mist forms obviously can't hold normal conversations, and there are some racist people who don't like dragons and try to slay them, for just a couple examples.

If your player is just staying in their Alt. Form, just throw a conversation at them.

from core-rules.

disclaimer : I'm playing the devil advocate right now.

I think @Elvenoob that the problem comes from the lack of direct specification to do so. All the example you just provided are supposedly handle through flaws in OLRPG but the feat actually requires no drawback.

I know that OLRPG as a target audience of players that put the story first, but old habits die hard for experienced player coming from other games ;)

And if the rational to "balance" this feat is to have some flaws associate with it, maybe we should say so. That will help new players (experienced in rpg or not) to understand how it should works.

So may be just requiring to gain one flaw associate with the new form would please everyone !?

from core-rules.

(Heh, I've seen people have trouble with my usename before, but that one is cool. Also, I get that you're playing devils' advocate, don't take anything I say here personally either.)

Then again, I think we need to get back around to the point of, you are spending Feat points to get this, and quite a lot of them, too.

Considering Alternate Form is nowhere NEAR the level of broken-ness found in the Berserk feat, I see no need to drag it down with a downside of any kind.

from core-rules.

I think we've had this discussion at least twice now (I suggested reducing the available bonusses unless you balance them out with some malusses or flaws)

But as Brian explained, this is not necessary for the core of Open Legends. The Core should be as simple as possible, if there are issues in individual groups, they can adjust the rules like they need them.

Though it wouldn't hurt to add it to the core as an optional rule.

from core-rules.

Being able to add half your alteration as you please to your stats is a huge benefit, potentially unlocking many banes/boons you couldn't access before. Giving them a single level of fatigue is hardly terrible for that. Considering they're basically swapping feat points for attributes and early access to certain boons fatigue seems reasonable to keep people from just spiking in power and leaving the rest of their party behind permanently between feat points AND attribute points increasing their character's ability.

Using your version, I think they should at least have to expend points to determine how long they can maintain their form. A vampire rarely maintains mist form indefinitely any more than a werewolf assumes their war form indefinitely. But a time constraint and make it cost a focus action something to prevent wanton abuse from experienced players. Most experienced players will shrug off the first level of fatigue as nothing anyway and find somewhere to rest after the second fight if possible - giving them a simplified form of resource management that isn't too overbearing.

edit: when I said more severe than the berserker I meant the berserker could theoretically indefinitely rage as long as they hit stuff until they want to stop. The transformation has a time constraint built into it with fatigue afterwards.

from core-rules.

We've already moved away from the alteration-based idea, @raihje , due to creatures like Werewolves, who aren't (usually) skilled alchemists.

Again, NO, even giving the same penalty to Alternate Form as to the Berserker feat is WAY GOD DAMN TOO MUCH, please go back and read my math, @raihje , Berserker is roughly three times better than Alternate Form by my (generously low) estimation.

There is no way in hell that giving the two feats even the same penalty is anywhere near fair.

And yet, you're suggesting giving the same downside, AND a time limit!? WHY!?

And, did you even read ANY of my comment, @raihje ? You also seem to have ignored where I mentioned that almost every other feat gives some kind of permanent benefit, so even a player staying in their Alternate form all the time despite the RP problems with that, isn't really going to be that badly overpowered, it takes a LOT of feat point investment to get a noticeably strong alternate form, and you could get a large amount of power from instead purchasing three always-on feats, instead, you chose this.

People seem way to scared about this feat being overpowered.

It's flavourful, it's a little versatile, and it's certainly just as worthy of the Feat points as any other Feat would be, but it's just not as powerful as everyone makes it out to be.

from core-rules.

Even if it's just a time limit, or just fatigue. I'm saying there must be something to prevent a player from dumping all their feat points into increasing attributes on top of their attribute points and just romping around like a particularly broadly talented badass. It's a cool feat, and it's not necessarily really overpowered, but as it stands it's a flat boost that may well be 24/7. If you really won't budge on any of that, at least make it a focus action or something I guess and have them revert any time they're unconscious (not just 0 hp)

from core-rules.

Not necessarily really overpowered

Then why the big fuss about forcing them out of it!

Since it apparently, and at the bare minimum, fits in with the more-than-50 other feats which are always actively increasing the character's power levels, I just can't understand your opinion.

Particularly with how the main player-base of Open Legend is more RP-focused anyway.

from core-rules.

Hey guys. We really appreciate all the feedback. I'm gonna lock the discussion at this point as it's gone in circles a few times.

I think Brian and I have a pretty good idea of what the different opinions from the community are on this issue, so it's going to be on us to make a final call. We might not be able to please everyone 100%, but I'm sure we'll come up with something that is much more fun and mechanically clear than the current version.

from core-rules.

@brianfeister So, I had a pretty crazy idea with this feat. What if we just make the rules for creating your alternate form the same as creating a new character. So, if someone took this feat at first level, they would essentially create two characters. The catch, beyond the feat point cost, would be that your alternate form would have a smaller pool of points. So you'd be trading mastery for versatility. We would have to add feats for special movement modes and notes about character sizes (which I think we need to do regardless of where Alternate Form goes).

I'm thinking something like this:

Cost: 3 points per tier

Tier 1: 20 attribute points, 2 feat points
Tier 2: 25 attribute points, 4 feat points
Tier 3: 30 attribute points, 6 feat points
Tier 4: 45 attribute points, 8 feat points
Tier 5: 50 attribute points, 10 feat points
Tier 6: 55 attribute points, 12 feat points
Tier 7: 60 attribute points, 14 feat points
Tier 8: 65 attribute points, 16 feat points
Tier 9: 70 attribute points, 18 feat points

I know this seems like a radical departure from the direction we were heading. But, I think it is a good solution because the character creation rules are already balanced, so our only job would be finding the right number of points per tier. PLUS, I think this is just a super fun way to implement Alternate Form. I think the types of players who want to play a shifting character would totally geek out over this.

from core-rules.

@istabosz I like the idea a lot :)

A few things that will suffer collateral damage:

1. People looking to use alternate form to crank up their base stats like a werewolf with a stronger wolf form might be a bit disappointed. But that's probably fine.
2. For alternate movement modes, adding new feats is fine but we keep bumping up against this "flight" problem and how difficult we want to make it. By moving those fears into primary on their own, we create a situation where we have to limit cost to 3 points. I've killed off all other feats of higher cost for the sake of simplicity. I suppose one could argue that boon focus 6 (flight) is more powerful than a feat that lets you fly, since Boon Focus allows you to target anyone.

from core-rules.

(I've unlocked this thread for comments from everyone else)

from core-rules.

Also, if fifth edition is allowing first level characters to have access to flight now, which they are, then it must not be as OP as I am worried about, since first through third level characters are quite underpowered in 5E

from core-rules.

I'm totally on board with this change.

It's so much simpler to understand what that feat does like that.

It also happens to be the same way Mutants and Masterminds does it, just so you know ;)

They only add a restriction that the new form must have the Alternate Feat ... Without that you can't switch back.

They also simply allow you to have the Alternate Form automatically level up as you level, to keep it simple. And you can take the feat multiple times for additional forms.

from core-rules.

That solution is perfect it solves all issues I had with the Alternate Form. You are a genius Ish.

The Werewolf would be no issue, it is specialised and could simply focus all the points it has in Physical. And in those cases where it is needed, players could simply use the alternate form as the main one.

I'm just a bit concerned about the price. Tier 9 Cost 3 feats always feel a bit much, but in this case switching to the other form would actually be the only feat the main form has. So you end up with one form having all the attributes and the other form having all the feats.

Do you really need the feat to define the power of the alternate Form? Wouldn't it be enough for it to just give access and use natural growth? Somewhat Like this:

Cost: 4 (?) (That way the lvl1 character can have one Cost 2 feat in each form)
Tier I: 12 Attribute Points + 2 per lvl, 2 Feat Points + 0 per lvl
Tier II: 18 Attribute Points + 4 per lvl, 2 Feat Points + 1 per lvl
Tier III: 24 Attribute Points + 6 per lvl, 2 Feat Point + 2 per lvl

That way you'd have feat points to shape the main form beyond "it's not the alternate form."

As far as flight goes: I got it from an Aaracocra player that low level flight is more dangerous than powerfull. One attack clipping your wings and the fall damage does the rest. (you need to define fall damage btw)

You may have to think about the differences between physical flight (alternate mode like swim) and supernatural levitation (Flight Boon). Flight Boon is definitely more powerfull, it can be bestowed to others and can't be interrupt by injure or bane, only dispelled. Physical flight may have other restrictions like minimum speed or limited turning.

And another idea: How about reintroducing the pevious concept for Alternate Form as a new Alteration based feat for smaller transformations?

from core-rules.

Also, Flight is literally the main thing that race gets. It's their bonus, they don't really get much else. Other races get several attribute bonuses along side languages and/or tool or falvourful proficiencies and even combat bonuses like being able to hide easier or re-roll a 1 occasionally. Flight is THE feature of the arrakocra much like variants human's feature is a free feat.

from core-rules.

@raihje The Aaracora aren't the only flight race, and they have a much higher speed than the base walking too, so it makes sense that they just get that and a couple stat bumps

Since the Flight we're usually talking about here is closer to what the Variant Tiefling gets (30', exactly the same as their normal movement speed), they're the more suitable comparison here.

from core-rules.