Monero Policy Working Group Meeting: Tuesday 11th July @ 16:00 UTC about meta HOT 1 CLOSED

[2023-07-11 17:00:40] <midipoet> Hello
[2023-07-11 17:01:03] <ArticMine[m]> Hello 
[2023-07-11 17:01:04] <andrea[m]> Hello
[2023-07-11 17:01:08] <midipoet> Agenda for todays's meeting can be found here: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/858
[2023-07-11 17:01:54] <midipoet> 1. Greetings (sort of completed already). 
[2023-07-11 17:02:07] <midipoet> 2. MPWG update
[2023-07-11 17:02:17] <benedictvs[m]> Hi!
[2023-07-11 17:03:14] <midipoet> for those that weren't at the event (or didn't know), members of the MPWG gave talks at MoneroKon 2023 in Prague
[2023-07-11 17:03:34] <midipoet> midipoet:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt1pPWhFHT4
[2023-07-11 17:03:42] <midipoet> andrea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl4urDoQqwY
[2023-07-11 17:03:49] <midipoet> articmine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZLh2VgTvoI
[2023-07-11 17:03:58] <midipoet> ben biederman: https://youtu.be/vt1pPWhFHT4?t=1628
[2023-07-11 17:04:19] <midipoet> there was also a monero policy working group panel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LQsqMYVn2M
[2023-07-11 17:04:59] <midipoet> i think all were well received - especially the panel - so thanks to you all for being involved/giving time and effort
[2023-07-11 17:05:21] <benedictvs[m]> This is based on a case from Germany https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/13429-Clarifying-the-legal-tender-status-of-euro-banknotes-and-coins_en
[2023-07-11 17:05:29] <midipoet> does anybody have any other updates related to MoneroKon 2023?
[2023-07-11 17:07:32] <midipoet> ok, so to move on - as benedictvs[m] intimated, there have been a host of new public consultations linked to the broader finance sector in Europe. 
[2023-07-11 17:07:41] <andrea[m]> I really enjoyed the panel discussion. Just want to share a general feeling that more panel discussions would be great at coming conferences, also on non-regulatory issues
[2023-07-11 17:08:24] <midipoet> andrea[m]: yeah, i think we all enjoyed it, and certainly something we could consider (applying for more representation at conferences)
[2023-07-11 17:08:27] <benedictvs[m]> midipoet: Sorry, I didn’t want to jump ahead.
[2023-07-11 17:08:35] <midipoet> benedictvs[m]: no problems
[2023-07-11 17:08:55] <benedictvs[m]> midipoet: Also thank you for the panel discussion I found it valuable too.
[2023-07-11 17:09:15] <benedictvs[m]> midipoet: I think there are some larger tenders coming in the next year or so related to the digital euro proposal.
[2023-07-11 17:09:18] <ajs_[m]> Hi
[2023-07-11 17:09:23] <midipoet> full list of public consultations by the European Commission, tangentially related to crypto-assets/finance space:
[2023-07-11 17:09:23] <midipoet> 
[2023-07-11 17:09:23] <midipoet> https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/13241-Open-finance-framework-enabling-data-sharing-and-third-party-access-in-the-financial-sector_en
[2023-07-11 17:09:23] <midipoet> 
[2023-07-11 17:09:23] <midipoet> https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/13904-Payment-services-revision-of-EU-rules-Directive-_en
[2023-07-11 17:09:23] <midipoet> 
[2023-07-11 17:09:23] <midipoet> https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/13429-Clarifying-the-legal-tender-status-of-euro-banknotes-and-coins_en
[2023-07-11 17:09:23] <midipoet> 
[2023-07-11 17:09:23] <midipoet> https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/13392-A-digital-euro-for-the-EU_en
[2023-07-11 17:09:23] <midipoet> 
[2023-07-11 17:09:23] <midipoet> https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/13905-Payment-services-revision-of-EU-rules-new-Regulation-_en
[2023-07-11 17:10:15] <midipoet> i have not had a chance to read any of these in any detail - but if anybody has opinions, please go ahead
[2023-07-11 17:10:18] <ArticMine[m]> What are the deadlines 
[2023-07-11 17:11:08] <ArticMine[m]> The one on legal tender cash is very interesting 
[2023-07-11 17:11:18] <midipoet> seems most are 5th September 2023
[2023-07-11 17:12:15] <ajs_[m]> Regarding MoneroKon videos, the uploaded videos are unedited (for the most part). More polished versions should be uploaded in the coming months
[2023-07-11 17:12:50] <midipoet> great, thanks ajs_[m] 
[2023-07-11 17:15:07] <midipoet> does anybody have strong opinions about whether we should try and reply to any of these consultations? they seem tangentially related and maybe indicative of broader change in the finance space, but i am not convinced they are that related to us.
[2023-07-11 17:15:48] <andrea[m]> They are all interesting, but they are not directly related to Monero
[2023-07-11 17:16:03] <ArticMine[m]> The legal tender / cash I would take a look at 
[2023-07-11 17:16:19] <andrea[m]> Of course, they have an indirect impact on us
[2023-07-11 17:16:41] <midipoet> ArticMine[m]: what is the your thinking on it?
[2023-07-11 17:16:44] <benedictvs[m]> midipoet: I think the legal tender one plays well into a discourse I’ve been following around CCs for a while, where it is discussed what constitutes money. I think Monero is based on this discussion through the fungibility debate.
[2023-07-11 17:16:57] <ArticMine[m]> I see cash as a more direct impact 
[2023-07-11 17:17:20] <benedictvs[m]> ArticMine[m]: digital cash?
[2023-07-11 17:17:55] <ArticMine[m]> I really need to review it first before I can comment further 
[2023-07-11 17:18:25] <ArticMine[m]> Good old EUR banknotes 
[2023-07-11 17:19:05] <midipoet> so maybe each of us can put some effort into reading the text/proposal, and then when we meet again we can discuss initial thoughts (the text/proposal is here: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/13429-Clarifying-the-legal-tender-status-of-euro-banknotes-and-coins_en)
[2023-07-11 17:19:59] <ArticMine[m]> Yes I agree 
[2023-07-11 17:20:07] <midipoet> any other comments on this agenda item? If not, i'll move forward
[2023-07-11 17:20:34] <andrea[m]> "ensure consistency with the related initiative on the digital euro". that could be interesting
[2023-07-11 17:20:50] <andrea[m]> andrea[m]: from the banknotes and coin proposal
[2023-07-11 17:21:27] <midipoet> yes, i think they have only published the impact assessment on the digital euro for feedback (https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/13392-A-digital-euro-for-the-EU_en)
[2023-07-11 17:21:47] <midipoet> might be some interesting references to privacy/transparency in that assessment (one would hope)
[2023-07-11 17:22:52] <andrea[m]> Documents are 22 and 5 pages, not that much
[2023-07-11 17:23:40] <midipoet> oh actually the digital euro is just a call for evidence for the impact assesment
[2023-07-11 17:24:53] <andrea[m]> 22 (cash) and 5 (digital euro)
[2023-07-11 17:25:54] <midipoet> ok - so let's move on. we can take some time to look at these and discuss at the next meeting. potentially we could respond, but keep our responses very short and contextually specific to digital assets/crypto-assets
[2023-07-11 17:26:10] <midipoet> 3. Ideas time
[2023-07-11 17:26:49] <midipoet> (i know a lot was discussed at MoneroKon so open floor for anyone with ideas on how they would like to see the MPWG proceed in the short/medium term)
[2023-07-11 17:27:18] → selenze[m] joined (~selenzema@2001:470:69fc:105::b469)
[2023-07-11 17:27:59] <andrea[m]> I don't know if it is the right point, but in a couple of weeks a short article of mine should be published on the Mises Wire. I will probably try to write a couple more, starting from MiCA and TFR, with a focus on readability and try to keep the language simple. Hopefully this can help spark the discussion outside our circle
[2023-07-11 17:28:12] <andrea[m]> *Short article on BS
[2023-07-11 17:28:52] <midipoet> andrea[m]: sounds fantastic. what is the Mises Wire (excuse my ignorance!)?
[2023-07-11 17:29:28] <andrea[m]> a libertarian blog
[2023-07-11 17:29:29] <andrea[m]> https://mises.org/wire
[2023-07-11 17:30:30] <midipoet> thanks for the link. please keep us posted
[2023-07-11 17:33:02] <ArticMine[m]> I see a shift from advocacy to litigation overall. As many of you know l am working for the defence in the Bitcoin Fog case
[2023-07-11 17:33:02] <ArticMine[m]> BS is in effect on trial.  I can't say much right now. 
[2023-07-11 17:33:02] <ArticMine[m]> What I can say is this trial in Washington is not the only one. 
[2023-07-11 17:33:02] <ArticMine[m]> There is also Tornado Cash in Amsterdam 
[2023-07-11 17:33:03] <andrea[m]> Speaking of MiCA, I am going through it these days. There are a couple of points that I am not sure about, I will share them with you soon
[2023-07-11 17:34:03] <andrea[m]> Fingers crossed for these trials
[2023-07-11 17:34:33] <midipoet> ArticMine[m]: yeah, there are a number of relatively high profile cases in the space
[2023-07-11 17:34:46] <benedictvs[m]> I’ll be working on a decentralised identity bridge to offer EU persons a way out of eIDAS2. We got an EU grant for this. I want to use this opportunity to further the did:xmr spec. Perhaps there will be a rough draft early Q4.
[2023-07-11 17:35:10] <midipoet> benedictvs[m]: nice. can you say what funded project it is through?
[2023-07-11 17:35:18] <ArticMine[m]> ... and the impact can be profound 
[2023-07-11 17:36:21] <benedictvs[m]> ArticMine[m]: I think it is no coincidence seeing these cases appearing and not so decentralised identity moving ahead on full speed.
[2023-07-11 17:36:28] <midipoet> benedictvs[m]: have you ever read this paper?
[2023-07-11 17:36:34] <midipoet> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/vD0pLdL1/Egbert_et_al-Identity_Chains.pdf
[2023-07-11 17:36:37] <benedictvs[m]> midipoet: Yeah it’s the first round of Trustchain calls.
[2023-07-11 17:37:32] <benedictvs[m]> midipoet: no, but that sounds super relevant 
[2023-07-11 17:37:55] <midipoet> ArticMine[m]: would you (with help from other members here maybe) be interested in writing something that summarises the potential impact of the court cases?
[2023-07-11 17:37:57] <benedictvs[m]> Is it dated midipoet ?
[2023-07-11 17:38:19] <midipoet> benedictvs[m]: yeah - the authors were some of the original members of monero research lab (as far as i understand it)
[2023-07-11 17:38:54] <benedictvs[m]> midipoet: Do you know when it was published?
[2023-07-11 17:38:58] <midipoet> 2016: https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/469.pdf
[2023-07-11 17:39:25] <benedictvs[m]> Thomas Otte sounds very familiar.
[2023-07-11 17:39:27] <midipoet> Egbert, A., Chun, B., & Otte, T. (2016). Identity Chains. Cryptology ePrint Archive.
[2023-07-11 17:40:36] <ArticMine[m]> midipoet: Yes but I have to wait for the resolution of the Bitcoin Fog case 
[2023-07-11 17:40:47] <midipoet> ArticMine[m]: that might be years away!
[2023-07-11 17:41:36] <ArticMine[m]> More like a few months 
[2023-07-11 17:42:14] <midipoet> ok. sounds good 
[2023-07-11 17:42:37] <midipoet> any other ideas/updates from the floor?
[2023-07-11 17:42:53] <ArticMine[m]> I expect in the fall of this year 
[2023-07-11 17:44:32] <andrea[m]> All good for me
[2023-07-11 17:44:41] <midipoet> 4. Agree next steps
[2023-07-11 17:45:05] <midipoet> ok, so i think we agreed to read the EC consultations and then discuss/decide their relevance at the next meeting
[2023-07-11 17:45:48] <midipoet> when should we meet? we initially said monthly, so that would be 8th of August 
[2023-07-11 17:45:59] <midipoet> is that too late, if we do decide to respond?
[2023-07-11 17:46:25] <andrea[m]> Maybe one week earlier?
[2023-07-11 17:46:33] <ArticMine[m]> How about in two weeks 
[2023-07-11 17:46:44] <midipoet> i think in two weeks is correct
[2023-07-11 17:46:52] <andrea[m]> The consultation ends on September 5th, and it takes time to write a response, even if short
[2023-07-11 17:47:05] <andrea[m]> Agree
[2023-07-11 17:47:07] <midipoet> so 25th of July 16:00 UTC
[2023-07-11 17:47:08] <ArticMine[m]> That is enough to review the proposals 
[2023-07-11 17:47:25] <midipoet> i will create the issue, and update the topic here
[2023-07-11 17:47:47] <midipoet> does anybody have any other business, or can we close the meeting?
[2023-07-11 17:48:22] <andrea[m]> midipoet: thanks
[2023-07-11 17:48:27] <andrea[m]> midipoet: all good for me
[2023-07-11 17:49:12] <ArticMine[m]> Sounds good 
[2023-07-11 17:49:40] <midipoet> great. thanks everyone, and see you next time