Monero Research Lab Meeting - Wed 19 April 2023, 17:00 UTC about meta HOT 1 CLOSED

[04-19-2023 16:59:40] <UkoeHB> meeting time https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/829
[04-19-2023 16:59:40] <UkoeHB> 1. greetings
[04-19-2023 16:59:40] <UkoeHB> hello
[04-19-2023 17:00:15] <vtnerd> hi
[04-19-2023 17:00:30] <rbrunner> Hello
[04-19-2023 17:00:34] <Rucknium[m]> Hi
[04-19-2023 17:03:37] <UkoeHB> 2. updates, what's everyone working on?
[04-19-2023 17:04:13] <UkoeHB> me: working on 'implementing seraphis' companion paper for the main paper, and need to prep for monerotopia
[04-19-2023 17:04:40] <Rucknium[m]> I released my analysis of the privacy impact of Mordinals:
[04-19-2023 17:04:40] <Rucknium[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/12kv5m0/empirical_privacy_impact_of_mordinals_monero_nfts/
[04-19-2023 17:05:47] <Rucknium[m]> Things have been quiet on the Mordinals front. Fewer than 50 Mordinals minted in the past week. I am now tracking Mordinal transfer transactions: https://gist.github.com/Rucknium/67cc9efdf7e43a40c52417611b322d43
[04-19-2023 17:06:23] <Rucknium[m]> According to my count, there have been 126 Mordinal transfer transactions
[04-19-2023 17:07:29] <Rucknium[m]> Considering only outputs from Mordinal minting transactions as black marbles, mean effective ring size is 15.88 as of yesterday.
[04-19-2023 17:08:16] <Rucknium[m]> That number will rise toward 16 asymptotically as time goes on unless many more Mordinals are minted.
[04-19-2023 17:08:21] <UkoeHB> plowsof: we are past Liam Eagen's self-imposed deadline, any news?
[04-19-2023 17:09:24] <vtnerd> Ive mainly focused on lws and serialization, but I am _finally_ shifting back to some bp++. going to be a bit I think
[04-19-2023 17:09:32] <vtnerd> koe what was the self-emposed deadline?
[04-19-2023 17:09:38] <vtnerd> was he working on the implementation instead?
[04-19-2023 17:11:52] <UkoeHB> vtnerd: he's updating the paper
[04-19-2023 17:12:55] <xmrack[m]> Hi
[04-19-2023 17:13:26] <Rucknium[m]> Could be that BP++ doesn't work.
[04-19-2023 17:14:38] <ofrnxmr[m]> <vtnerd> "koe what was the self-emposed..." <- The 14th
[04-19-2023 17:16:16] <UkoeHB> at least as late as feb 23rd he was employed by blockstream to work on it
[04-19-2023 17:16:23] <UkoeHB> 3. discussion
[04-19-2023 17:16:46] <ofrnxmr[m]> Rucknium @rucknium:monero.social: did some analysis of the distribution of number of outputs in each decoy
[04-19-2023 17:19:29] <ofrnxmr[m]> I think very telling in for conversation of standardizing outputs.
[04-19-2023 17:19:29] <ofrnxmr[m]> 2 outs are in every decoy (though it seems there were 100 rings where there was only one 2 out decoy). 16 outs have the next highest prevalance and 3-15 are relatively rare
[04-19-2023 17:21:01] <Rucknium[m]> Here's the table: https://gist.github.com/Rucknium/0737163a980a07cf9c837700771d0dea
[04-19-2023 17:21:16] <Rucknium[m]> There are row >16 there I think because some outputs are selected from very old outputs without the 16 output limit.
[04-19-2023 17:21:20] <UkoeHB> is the incidence rate different from what you'd expect?
[04-19-2023 17:22:36] <ofrnxmr[m]> personally it was what i expected based on how people spend
[04-19-2023 17:22:36] <Rucknium[m]> UkoeHB: was that a question for me? If so, incidence rate of what?
[04-19-2023 17:24:27] <UkoeHB> Rucknium[m]: does the distribution in decoys match the expected distribution?
[04-19-2023 17:26:24] <Rucknium[m]> I expect it to roughly match the actual output-per-tx distribution on the chain. Since I don't know what that is (yet), it vacuously matches my expectations :)
[04-19-2023 17:26:37] <Rucknium[m]> I can produce the tables to see if it is close
[04-19-2023 17:26:46] <ofrnxmr[m]> (not technical answer) looks to me like it doesnt descriminate. Ie, looks to be in lin with real spending behavior, but with unlucky/lucky outliers (100 rings with only one 2 out, for example)
[04-19-2023 17:26:48] <UkoeHB> ah
[04-19-2023 17:28:20] <UkoeHB> are there any other topics we should discuss today?
[04-19-2023 17:28:29] <Rucknium[m]> I think ofrnxmr believes that outputs from 16-out txs are not credible decoys (i.e. are black marbles)for rings that spend from 2-out txs. I am not convinced, but I will keep an open mind.
[04-19-2023 17:28:57] <ofrnxmr[m]> oh no
[04-19-2023 17:30:53] <ofrnxmr[m]> actually - id more think of them as.. grey.
[04-19-2023 17:30:53] <ofrnxmr[m]> they arent standout transactions, but they are obvious not-real-spends if say walmart is accepting xmr in person
[04-19-2023 17:33:03] <Rucknium[m]> If someone was paid an output in a batch tx from an exchange or mining pool and then spent that output to the merchant, it's the real spend. IMHO, these are credible decoys
[04-19-2023 17:33:48] <plowsof11> BP++: no updates since March 28th where April 14th was promised. no reply to an email sent on the 12th yet
[04-19-2023 17:34:09] <ofrnxmr[m]> If the tx the merchant recieves has fifteen 16 outs, and one 2 out, the real soend is clear
[04-19-2023 17:34:47] <Rucknium[m]> Yes, but only Mordinals do that. Deliberately.
[04-19-2023 17:35:32] <ofrnxmr[m]> The 100 on your chart are morbinals?
[04-19-2023 17:35:52] <Rucknium[m]> Mordinal transfer txs
[04-19-2023 17:36:33] <Rucknium[m]> I'm pretty sure. I said it in this channel a few days ago.
[04-19-2023 17:36:33] <ofrnxmr[m]> Yeah, but those 100 from this chart are confirmed to be morbinals?
[04-19-2023 17:36:33] <ofrnxmr[m]> ok. I thought it was an outlier
[04-19-2023 17:36:46] <ArticMine[m]> What is the typical tx size when mordinals are involved?
[04-19-2023 17:37:20] <Rucknium[m]> Mordinal minting? I can calculate the mean tx size. One moment
[04-19-2023 17:38:33] <Rucknium[m]> 370687101 / 43096 = 8601.427 bytes
[04-19-2023 17:39:20] <Rucknium[m]> Mordinal transfer txs:
[04-19-2023 17:39:26] <Rucknium[m]> 281030 / 126 = 2230.397 bytes
[04-19-2023 17:39:45] <ArticMine[m]> There is at least an opportunity for pricing if not looking at tx size limits
[04-19-2023 17:40:42] <ArticMine[m]> This is an issue l am looking at in a general sense
[04-19-2023 17:40:50] <ArticMine[m]> Tx size pricing and limits
[04-19-2023 17:42:03] <Rucknium[m]> The new version of the Mordinals software has a self-imposed fee policy. tx fee rises exponential with ex_extra size
[04-19-2023 17:42:22] <Rucknium[m]> Of course, people can just choose to run the old software and avoid the fee
[04-19-2023 17:42:23] <ArticMine[m]> That is actually good
[04-19-2023 17:42:29] <rbrunner> Yes, they even credit you, ArticMine[m], for the inspiration of the curve :)
[04-19-2023 17:43:06] <ArticMine[m]> ... but we can use node relay for this
[04-19-2023 17:49:39] <UkoeHB> I think we can end the meeting here, thanks for attending everyone

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