Star trivia about endless-sky HOT 15 OPEN

Hi, long time lurker here, thought I'd chime in. I made some mockups I was going to post to the star map PR but this is probably a better place for them as it doesn't really affect that PR. Amazinite also mentioned something similar in #9236 which is akin to how I've always envisioned a UI for this.

While the star map is amazing, it still requires understanding which star types have better solar power or solar wind based on experience. Being able to see binary stars at a glance helps with that somewhat, as well as giants and special stars. But there's still no way from the user interface to discover that O stars have the most power while M stars have the least among the standard types, and vice versa for wind, and it's difficult for the lay person to differentiate which icon is which other than size difference (dwarf, normal, giant, supergiant) without digging into the images files and committing them to memory.

A solar listing at the top of the Map Planet Card would be quite helpful to see the total combined solar power and solar wind for the system, as well as the trivia/stats of individual stars on the details panel.

Here's my mockups... (pay no attention to my customized system links and governments/colors)

First, clicking on the Star Type could bring up the star map with a system government overlay, overriding it being toggled off as a way to introduce players to the star map layer in case they don't ever notice the toggle (and because the star map is beautiful). Also in case someone doesn't like the star map and wants the colored circles instead of colored names to view the solar power and solar wind legends.

Sol with Star Type clicked:

Clicking on the Solar Power or Solar Wind would turn off the star map and return to circles (unless the star map is permanently toggled on) and display a new overlay/legend for combined solar power or solar wind of all systems. I used the danger overlay for these Power/Wind mockups so the legend doesn't actually match the system colors, but you get the idea.

Solar Power with star map toggled off:

Solar Wind with star map toggled on:

For binary systems, here's Alpha Centauri:

And the trinary system of Atik:

This setup would obviously need to be tweaked somewhat to accommodate systems with more stars than that, which I believe is just Ae Il A-3 in vanilla:

Overall I think it would be a great addition to the game, encouraging more adoption of solar energy outfits and more informed usage of ramscoops. I also use a customized set up where Fuel Cells actually use fuel (with fighters and drones converted to solar) and all ships have some Solar Heat baked in to actually make stars hot and cooling outfits more necessary, so I very much want solar info at my fingertips. Another added benefit is giving some sense of life and purpose to uninhabited systems as every system would have a star listing in place of an otherwise missing Map Planet Card.

Sadly I don't know how to code and have only done some basic modifications to the Map Planet Card, but hopefully someone likes this enough to implement in some fashion.

from endless-sky.

Perhaps the trivia bit could be covered in something akin to planet descriptions? Presented maybe on the Map view. Would allow us to also add lore bits to each star, say focusing on details about the history of exploration there, or details about the star's system.

from endless-sky.

Why would we want to combine binary+ stars into one sprite? Then how are you going to provide trivia on each star? I think it makes more sense to show each star individually.

It doesn't make sense to combine sprites which is why the discussion was about how to implement the concept without having to do so. The idea of using a single spot was meant to show combined system power/wind and reduce potential bloat on the Map Planet Card and, but two stars isn't that much considering most systems don't even have more than 1 landable anyway. I think there's only two trinaries in human space, Atik and Misam; Misam could certainly handle three stars and New Tortuga on the planet card.

Listing each star individually would probably be easier to implement (no fuss with stacking star icons) but doesn't solve the problem of indicating the combined power and wind of a system, which based on the possible binary combinations can vary quite widely. For example, the combined power of Gento Bo (O-supergiant and A0) is 7.2 and Mebsuta (G-supergiant and M-dwarf) is 2.5, as the power of the A0 and the G-supergiant are equal. But Mebsuta is extremely windy with a combined total of 4.1, whereas Gento Bo has a respectable, but lower, wind of 3.03. Pelubta in Coalition space only has a total wind of 1.2 with its B3 and A-dwarf.

If listing each star on the planet card is an acceptable solution, I would still really like to see a combined solar power and solar wind display somewhere else in the UI, maybe at the top, for easy to digest info at a glance without being too precise. Here's a mockup of the most cluttered star system:

Separately, I don't like the idea of displaying solar wind and solar power attributes to the player. These should remain hidden. The player can intuit which stars provide the best solar power/wind through experimentation, which I actually think is more fun. Just showing the type of star in each system on the galaxy map will go a long way to helping the player figure this stuff out on their own.

While exact stats may be a bit too far (I have them visible in-game for precise data when testing), a simple system (minor, low, average, high, massive) wouldn't be unreasonable as suggested in #9236.

I don't agree with the design philosophy of punishing the player even after discovery; rather, discovery should be encouraged through data tracking as is currently done with system exploration. Ship computers record the system name and basic info when you explore and asteroid info when mining, players aren't expected to commit all those details to memory. Nor should they be required to do so with solar heat and solar wind in order to maximize their usage of outfits that harness them.

New players should be blind to that data just as they are with system names, but once discovered, it should be retained in the user interface. Make the data collection proactive instead of passive by requiring an outfit like with asteroid scanning; i.e. with a ramscoop installed, collecting solar wind in a system for X amount of seconds will add the general amount of solar wind to your map. Solar power data could be tied to solar collection, i.e. collect solar power in system for X seconds or get Y close to the stars to record data. Or maybe make detecting both require the otherwise useless-to-players atmospheric scanning stat.

from endless-sky.

This PR #9709 covers a few of the things you mentioned, though it doesn't include "trivia" about the star.

from endless-sky.

Why would we want to combine binary+ stars into one sprite? Then how are you going to provide trivia on each star? I think it makes more sense to show each star individually.

Separately, I don't like the idea of displaying solar wind and solar power attributes to the player. These should remain hidden. The player can intuit which stars provide the best solar power/wind through experimentation, which I actually think is more fun. Just showing the type of star in each system on the galaxy map will go a long way to helping the player figure this stuff out on their own.

from endless-sky.

The planet card can be modified pretty easily to add this, I just dont quite know how to show the binary systems and such

Maybe we should get custom images for all of them? The code to support that wouldn't be too hard either, and it's smth I want for things like ringworlds anyway

from endless-sky.

I hoped the star images on the planet card could be stacked using a small offset like they are within systems, but if not, at least having the first star in a system used as the image would be better than nothing (and much easier to add). And at worst, custom images for each binary or larger system; it would be tedious and would add to image bloat, but I'd be willing to make the needed combinations if required.

If it's possible to trigger a different details panel image background for systems with 4 or more stars, then it'd be easier to support larger systems and all their star details. I could only fit 3 star details under the current setup without using a larger background image for every planet/star's details.

Support for a custom Map Planet Card icon might be nice for the Ringworlds and plugin support, and if necessary, multi-star systems. As an aside, it'd also be nice for wormhole support so you can remember what system a wormhole is in before you're able to map their route (i.e. Terminus, but also support for plugins with wormholes to other galaxies that don't display mappable links).

As for what opusforlife2 mentioned, Betelgeuse can be startling/awe-inspiring as it's often the first experience with a supergiant (unless someone goes to the Deep first). For new players, they often don't know what the limitations of the game are and there's a seemingly useless heat meter at the start, so when you see a massive red sun the first instinct is to turn away and run...until you realize heat isn't even affected by supergiants.

Going further, I'm experimenting with using Solar Heat on every ship so that stars are actually hot, but I alter the habitable, arrival, and planet distances accordingly. So you will overheat without extra cooling systems if you get too close to supergiants or strong binary systems thus forcing you to turn around and slowly limp away between overheatings, but you jump into the system at a safe distance. This makes star power info more useful than for just solar panels.

But while Betelgeuse is impressive in size and appearance, it's actually a weak star for power at only 1.6, while every O-star and B-star except the dwarves out-power it. But as a new pilot I'd have no idea that's the case except through prolonged testing with solar panels; even with the new star map, I'd just assume that supergiant = more power for solar panels. There's no way to know that the mid-sized purple (O) or blueish-purple (B) and most of the blueish (A) star icons have more power output than the red supergiant icon on the star map.

Inversely, Betelgeuse is the best star for ramscoops apart from the special stars. For some reason, even though the type 0 through dwarf scales with wind getting larger the smaller the star is (dwarfs otherwise being best in class), the giants and supergiants break that scheme with both having far more wind than the rest of their star class including dwarves, and supergiants having more wind than giants.

With no interface to tell how much power and wind a star puts out (and combined output for multi-star systems), it's difficult for a user to make informed decisions, especially for ramscoop usage where wind doesn't seem to scale completely inversely to power.

from endless-sky.

What if we just had a description window when the player clicks on a star in the galaxy map's system view? Observe my rough mockup.

from endless-sky.

Understandable about the Terminus reasoning. Would still be nice if wormholes were displayed after being mapped (or maybe listed as unexplored after discovering it in the system but before mapping, with full details on what systems it links after mapping).

I'll get to adding stars, but the images I mostly need for the binary systems to display both in one image, not for the rest.

Here's a sample for Alpha Centauri, combining G3 and K0. Making combinations for every binary or larger system could be done if it'll mean getting the desired map overlay for solar stats and it can't be coded otherwise.

All of the panel is customizable so we could change the dimensions or whatever. We dont have more than 3 stars in a system either. Mb we can actually have code to combine the different stars in the img tho, but smbd would have to look into that in details.

Ae Il A-3 has 5 stars; k-supergiant, g-supergiant, g-giant, g0, and browndwarf-l. Probably best to support at least 5 stars from the start.

from endless-sky.

when the player clicks on a star

@alexrovw The clickable area would have to be far larger than the star, though. And this would need an additional tutorial step for the galaxy map, too. I discovered completely by accident that you can click on planets and wormholes in that mini-map.

Also, regarding the jump scare thing: in Alex's mockup, for example, where you can see the star image, would it be possible to add an image or a trace outline of the player's flagship for a relative size comparison?

from endless-sky.

Yeah, if the same few star types are being reused everywhere, then adding a custom image for each type shouldn't add much to the size, I think.

Also, there have been times when I entered a new star system and, not knowing the type, wandered close to it, incidentally or on purpose in order to refuel, and gotten the living shit scared out of me. Betelgeuse is a perfect example of this happening. As well as the supernovae that you appear inside when jump driving around. And some black holes. This is purely speculative, but people with health conditions might not appreciate the jump scare.

from endless-sky.

@opusforlife2 Can you explain how a star image is a jump scare??

from endless-sky.

Zoom in enough, enter the star system and move towards the star. When your largely black screen is suddenly invaded by a giant explode-y looking monstrosity, imagine how someone not expecting that might react. 🤭

from endless-sky.

Support for a custom Map Planet Card icon might be nice for the Ringworlds and plugin support, and if necessary, multi-star systems. As an aside, it'd also be nice for wormhole support so you can remember what system a wormhole is in before you're able to map their route (i.e. Terminus, but also support for plugins with wormholes to other galaxies that don't display mappable links).

Terminus is supposed to be +- hidden, not have a giant "this is a thing you can go into" sign before you discover it
But yeah customizability is always good

I'll get to adding stars, but the images I mostly need for the binary systems to display both in one image, not for the rest.

If it's possible to trigger a different details panel image background for systems with 4 or more stars, then it'd be easier to support larger systems and all their star details. I could only fit 3 star details under the current setup without using a larger background image for every planet/star's details.

All of the panel is customizable so we could change the dimensions or whatever. We dont have more than 3 stars in a system either.
Mb we can actually have code to combine the different stars in the img tho, but smbd would have to look into that in details.

from endless-sky.

Whats the spread of stars per systems? The default code could show 2 and then any more would not be shown except if you have a custom img?
Not knowing solar power has lead me to never use solar panels, I disagree with it having to stay hidden. (We wouldnt give an exact amount either, just strong/weak and whatever)

from endless-sky.